Parish Meeting
April 20, 2004
Questions, Comments and Suggestions
I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus
Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions
among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. (1
Corinthians 1:10)
I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a
manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness,
with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to preserve the
unity of the spirit through the bond of peace.
(Ephesians 4:1-3)
Why didn’t Monsignor Flach sign the letter that was recently sent to my home?
He wasn’t asked.
What additional tuition increase would have been required in order to give our underpaid teachers a better raise?
Next year’s tuition has been raised substantially. Additional increases (and even the current
ones) stand a chance of reducing enrollment.
Salaries and benefits for the school totaled about $1.2M, so each 1% increase is $12000, or about $40/child (not family)
Since the parish is getting a steady influx of new members, what is the explanation, if any, of the 25% decrease in Sunday Mass attendance?
There are probably dozens of reasons. On a broad perspective, Mass attendance is
down throughout the nation. Locally, we
would need to talk to the people involved.
One answer is given in the next slide
Also, nationwide declines due to concerns with the clergy sexual abuse scandals and the coverups. In our community, I (Msg. Flach) am aware that there are people who don’t like my style or homilies so they go elsewhere. People just aren’t going to church since they no longer see the Eucharist as the center of their lives.
What do we believe are the root
causes of the significant drop in Mass attendance? How do we plan to address these?
We have had grade school class Masses, welcoming Masses, and
Deacon Boyer and Monsignor Flach provide variety in homilies. It’s not clear what can be done liturgically
to bring more people to church.
Open for comment as to what the causes are...
Again-attendance is down nationwide due to a variety of causes. The Pastoral Council has been charged with that question to determine the cause of our local decline in attendance and to explore remedies to that situation.
In your letter you say you don’t think you wasted money, since you’ve proven you can’t manage the money I give you now, why should I give you even more?
We will be instituting tuition payment procedures to reduce
cash flow problems, and will look into ways to monitor expenses more closely within
the yearly budget cycle to better anticipate problems.
In general, problems have been on the income side of the ledger, not in over-budget expenditures.
While there are these types of issues with management of parish finances, we disagree that monies spent on improving the education at the school, enhancing liturgy, reaching out to candidates and youth, and instituting programs like RENEW are examples of waste.
How much did the new altar cloth cost? Who made it?
Was the altar cloth a wise expenditure at this time?
The altar cloth, along with flowers, were bought with
donations made for Easter decoration purposes.
The altar cloth cost $979.50. The labor to make it was donated and Monsignor gave $500 towards the purchase of the materials. Other donations would be welcome.
We can’t afford to clean the church. I think that’s more of a necessity than a new altar cloth.
Why were people hired and paid to do jobs that had been done by volunteers before when it was obvious we weren’t going to have the money to pay for them?
In the next fiscal year, we plan to use volunteers for
cleaning the church. This effort has to
be organized, probably by a volunteer
yet to be identified.
The church has been maintained very well by the contracted service over the past few years.
No one was coming forward to work with the Youth Ministry even though the Youth Commission said they needed someone. Parents and grandparents did volunteer to make costumes. Some jobs weren’t getting done. We have over 200 PSR students and it is an administrative nightmare. With her other duties, Sister Mary was unable to handle that so someone was hired to coordinate. Some of the duties are shifting. The Business Office was created and that person hired when Mr. Kennedy wasn’t able to continue. The Parish Secretary can’t answer all the call and do the Business Office too. I would like to see more volunteers but we need people to coordinate those volunteers.
Why do we waste money by paying for snow removal and cleaning when volunteers used to do a great job for free?
We would like a little historical information about
this. Contracting for this service
seems to make sense over the alternative of contacting volunteers in the early
Sunday morning hours.
We don’t have anyone who’s volunteered to remove the snow.
Instead of cutting out the church cleaning service, why not cut it back to half as much?
We can consider this.
Many parishioners still attend Ss. Peter and Paul because of Fr. Lenzini’s 7:00 a.m. Mass. Their Sunday offering may diminish or disappear if he no longer says this Mass. Why eliminate his position and risk the financial loss given our current financial difficulties?
Attendance or non-attendance at a Mass because of the
celebrant, while understandable, isn’t something we should accept as
correct. Sunday Mass participation is an
obligation that should not be ignored
for this reason.
Withholding donations, and so reducing operating funds, is counterproductive.
Father Lenzini’s services cost $70 per Mass. If people want to raise money to pay for this, that is fine.
Father Lenzini is a retired priest, who at any time may be unavailable for this service--what would these parishioners plan to do then?
Please consider keeping Fr. Lenzini as our visiting priest. The parish needs him and so does Fr. Flach. The work load for Fr. Flach is too much for one priest.
This is a better reason to keep Father Lenzini’s services
than the simple choice of celebrant.
If Fr. Lenzini leaves so
will some of our parishioners and we will lose more money.
The loss of parishioners is a more pressing problem than the
loss of their money.
7:00 a.m. Mass is well attended due to the structure of
the Mass:
•If we eliminate the visiting priest position, how will
our Mass schedule continue to accommodate the worship needs of these
parishioners?
•Over a one month period, can we divide the weekly
collections into the four Mass components?
If not, can we at least have a percentage measure from the 7:00 a.m.
Mass?
•How receptive will the parish leadership be to
parishioners who are willing to contribute additional money to keep the
visiting priest? Would the same or
similar position apply to other ministries if parishioners were financially
willing to support them separately?
Structure of the Mass means what? Limited music?
First Bullet: Currently, the Mass schedule will be maintained to accommodate the needs of these parishioners.
Second Bullet: This appears to be an attempt to say that the 7:00 Mass is self-funding. The 7:00 Mass collections, like all other Mass collections, pay for all the ministries of the parish.
Third bullet--Operating expenses cannot be cherry-picked by targeted fundraisers. Stewardship has to be conceived in a manner that meets the broad requirements of the parish, and allows it to grow in its ministries to the members and community.
We should support the Parish as a whole instead of “buying a service”.
If we are so short of money, why did we hire Jeanne Herzberg? What are her responsibilities? What is her salary?
For three years, our parish has participated in the
Comprehensive Youth Ministry program of the diocese. Recently, the Youth Ministry committee has
petitioned the Pastoral Council to find a way to better focus youth
ministry. A salaried employee answers
that need. Ms Herzberg’s efforts have
had a large impact already, as evidenced by the success of such activities as
the Confirmation dinner, and the Living Stations of the Cross. Her responsibilities involve all the youth of
the parish, regardless of the school they attend.
Jeanne’s salary is $30,000 plus benefits. Her hiring was a mandate from the Pastoral Council due to a request from the Youth Commission. The youth are our future. We invest a lot in the young, but there isn’t much for the Jr. High school age kids. Youth Ministry begins in 6th grade and tries to get these young people connected to the church. It was on the table for at least 3 years. This is a need and we’ve begun to address it. It is exciting. It’s had to decide whether to wait for the money or simply begin the ministry. We could have waited, but we took the lead. It has added to the financial difficulty we’ve experienced.
Why was Jeanne Herzberg hired
and given responsibilities that overlapped Sister Mary’s? And subsequently you
choose not to renew Sr. Mary’s contract.
Sister Mary’s work has become more focused on the RCIA and RCIC
programs for the parish, and RENEW.
There isn’t much overlap between Jeanne’s responsibilities and Sister
Mary’s present workload.
Candidate preparation will be performed by Monsignor Flach, although probably not in the same format that’s been used for the past several years. In Monsignor Flach, we have a resource that can meet the needs of candidate preparation. We are just getting started with our Youth Ministry program.
Finally, the DCF salary was greater than the Pastoral Associate’s, so the savings was greater.
We knew we had to make cuts. When we laid off school staff, we knew we would have to lay off Parish staff also. So that left Sister Mary and Jeanne. Looking at it practically, Father Flach can do RCIA, Renew can continue. Monsignor can’t do Youth Ministry. Jeanne is involved with both the PSR children and the SPPS children.
What major expenditures, new
programs, new hires, financial obligations were undertaken within the last six
months? Were these included in the
previous budget?
If not, who approved them? By what
authority? Does the Parish Finance
Council (or Parish Trustees) have final
approval or veto power? Who
does?
What expenditures are being discussed here? The Pastoral Associate position was in the
previous year’s budget as well as this one, but not executed earlier. Similarly, the Pastoral Council recognizes
the need for a music director, but has not been able to fund the position.
Pastoral Council has the next-to-final authority to approve budgets and other pastoral consideration. If the Council and the pastor disagree, methods of resolving conflict are spelled out in the Pastoral Council Constitution.
There have been no new programs. Finance Council recommends the budget, Kim prepares, Pastoral Council votes and approves the budget. Trustees have no veto power, only Monsignor has veto power.
How do you figure 1,301
families belong to the parish? Does this
count everyone who claims to be Catholic …who took a set of envelopes … who
lives within the parish … who uses parish services?
If 380 of those 1,301 (29.2%) contribute absolutely nothing to the parish
and another 290 (22.3%) gave less than $4 per week, you have 51.5% deadwood.
This is the envelope count.
We don’t check people’s donation records when they come to church--or
when they attend this meeting.
The challenges before us are to increase Mass attendance and cultivate the idea of Stewardship obligation.
Even if they don’t contribute they are still our Catholic Brethren.
Can you take a realistic look at our parish membership and stop counting those parishioners who are not contributing? Cutting the 670 families from the parish roster would at least lessen our diocesan tax rate. Tell it like it is, we have 631 families in our parish, now you can develop a realistic strategic plan.
Decreasing the diocesan tax rate sounds like a good idea;
most parishes in the diocese could probably reduce their own rolls by an
equivalent amount.
The parish leadership is aware of the number of regular donors.
The diocesan tax rate is based on amount collected not number of registered parishioners.
Of the parish families who donate less than $500 per year (over 900 of the 1,300 total), how many have children attending SPPS and/or Gibault schools? What are we doing to increase their financial participation in the parish?
My own (Dave D’s) take on this is that young families who
are trying to stabilize their households, plan for retirement, etc., and who
bring their kids to SPPS are entering a contract with the parish--they will
provide half the cost of their children’s education, and the other 1300
households provide the other half. That
makes sense to me.
There are SPPS households, PSR households, Gibault households, single member households, and childless households that can increase their financial participation in the parish. We need to encourage all of these groups to increase their stewardship.
SPPS and PSR are parish schools, to be supported by the parish as a whole.
In an age where a parish is less likely to see the involvement of women from religious order you select a layperson over a nun to teach our children. Why make a decision like that? It would seem to me that Sr. Mary’s religious training would be far more valuable to our parish and her income probably provided much needed support to her Mother House, which in this day in age probably needs all the support it can get from the few remaining working age nuns.
It’s no secret that Sister Mary’s arrival as DCF for Ss
Peter and Paul was controversial in the minds of a group of parishioners. She has served the parish extremely well in
the activities she has conducted. Any
number of parishes probably would be able to use her talents. The decision to not invite her back has to do
with the directions the parish is moving in as well as financial aspects.
Sister Mary has done a fantastic job. She shouldn’t have a problem finding a new position. Sister hasn’t been involved with the PSR or SPPS for the last couple years. Sister’s salary was $38,000 plus benefits. There are a lot of young women who will have career and families and I think a Catholic woman can be a great influence. They need to see a faith alive. I think we should celebrate marriage and the ministry of laypeople. Just vows does not make me (Monsignor) or anyone else a great witness of faith. Lay vs. religious isn’t valid. I (Monsignor) have as many faith limitations as you.
Just like there is a non-parishioner rate for tuition, can charge a non-parishioner rate for weddings and funerals?
We do this.
Weddings have a non-parishioner rate. We will not ask someone who’s just lost a loved one for more money for a funeral.
The reason Sunday collections
are down is because people are not going to church.
Therein lies the problem.
Ways to cut costs:
•Cut two kinds of music at 10:30 Mass.
•Combine the small classes of only 14 kids and eliminate
a teacher.
•We do not need a Parish Business Manager and a Parish
Secretary.
•Combine two jobs or get rid of the Business Manager.
Two kinds of music evidently refers to paying Judy Haberl
and Janice Geolat for their services.
Janice contributes her weekday services.
We have one class of 15 and one class of 14 in the same grade level (6th). If we combined these classes it would only solve the problem for one year. In the next year we would again have to either lay a teacher off or move them to another teaching position. Increasing enrollment would be a better solution.
These two positions are not combinable--we have always had a separation between the financial position and the secretarial. These positions serve not only the parish but the school as well.
How do these underachieving statistics compare to other large parishes in the Belleville Diocese?
Mass attendance is similar in
other large parishes of the diocese.
Parish Mass Attendance and Sunday Offering Decline:
· Many people do not like the pomp and ceremony style of liturgy that Monsignor seems to like.
· Monsignor does not collaborate with others well, and encourage the ideas and efforts of others.
We need:
If the spiritual condition is cared for, the physical and
financial will fall into place.
I’m concerned that our teachers and staff of our school
be exemplary in their lifestyle and true to their faith.
Father Flach is a dedicated servant and is very good with
the sick and the bereaved.
Monsignor Flach seems to totally disregard the
recommendations from various councils and workers.
This has led to a loss of parishioners as these parishioners are attending surrounding parishes.
The situation has deteriorated to the point that we lack cohesiveness among the parishioners and there is no true parish family.
I truly believe the situation can only be changed by a
change in our leadership.
(comments by Ruth Heine) It seems like everyone is blaming
Father. No one can be liked by
everyone. People would say things about
you too if you were the priest. We
don’t’ go to Mass to be entertained, but because Christ is there. Does everyone love everything about their
job? Do you quit if you don’t? We go to Mass because we need Christ. We don’t travel the country looking for a
priest we like.
Monsignor Flach on this and the previous few comments:
I love being a priest and your pastor. I love preaching. I love my ministry here at Ss. Peter and Paul. I enjoy teaching the school children and PSR students. I enjoy being with people in their time of need. Sometimes I feel effective, sometimes I know I blow it. I’m aware that I am somewhat pompous at times -- my family tells me that.
I have been asked if I would resign. I would leave the parish if it would help -- if I am the problem causing our present financial situation, I would be willing to leave. Would that solve the problem? I believe that my resignation would create another problem – there are those folks in the parish who like me and are supportive of my ministry. Possibly they would be upset with my departure and would be angry with those who are critical of my ministry.
With the shortage of priests, any pastor of Ss. Peter and Paul may have to take on additional duties. I don’t know if there would be that many priests in our diocese who want the work that this large parish demands. Our parish is in a cluster group with Hecker, Tipton, Valmeyer and Madonnaville. We are discussing the need and how to share ministries. Currently there are four priests in our cluster; by 2008 there will be three.
Yes, I would be willing to leave; but I would like to continue my ministry here with you. You need to tell me what you want and what changes you want to see. I can try to accommodate you; but I am 59 years old and I am not too sure how much I am able to change. I’ll try. I can only change me; however, I can’t change the ones who are leaving. They are the only ones who can do that. Five years ago I had asked the Pastoral Council to do an evaluation of my first year of ministry here at Ss. Peter and Paul. I am willing to do it again.
As I reflect on my ministry in our parish, I am concerned that I am failing you by my inability to inspire. I have failed to be able to articulate a vision and create amongst our parishioners an enthusiastic ownership of that vision. I struggle with this failing.
While I am speaking I want to share with you some thoughts on a vision. I haven’t thought this all the way through. I think our Catholic school is important, I believe that Catholic schools are the best way we have to share the faith with our children. However, because of the cost of tuition and the perception that we are not better than the public school our enrollment is decreasing or is flat. We need to grow. There is a desire to build for the future. We did a great job with the Capital Campaign for the new school. We can’t just maintain. We need to grow, expand.
We need to rally the “troops” like Jesus. There were struggles in the infant church. They weren’t sure where they were going or what they wanted. We haven’t changed much in 2000 years. We struggle to know the right direction or what we want to accomplish. There are tensions now as there were tensions in the early Church. We are sinful people, we’ve failed one another. I have sinned and failed you. It is important to come together and work together for the betterment of our school and parish.
What will get us off dead center? We can’t just maintain. We are the ones that insure the continuation of our faith and that’s our responsibility. When I first came to Waterloo, Father Margason said “go and make that a tuition free school.” I believe that the idea of have a tuition free school would be a cause of growth and inspiration. I want to suggest that we have a tuition free school (and even tuition free for our students attending Gibault High School) and that we create a parish where all are called to tithe – school families and all parishioners. If all would tithe (giving 5% of their income to parish/school, we would have no problem affording our quality Catholic school and other parish ministries. We would have greater enrollment and there would be a vision on which to build; to grow. We’ll die if we just maintain. We have the wherewithal to do more. With the debt we have now, you may think that I am crazy for this suggestion; but we need to find and articulate a vision that will capture the imagination and the enthusiasm of our all parishioners
I came here because I chose to come here. I really wanted to be here even though I knew it would be difficult. I want to continue ministering here and I hope and pray that we will be able to grow and be filled with the Spirit.
Finally
I apologize to all I may have offended.
Thank you.
•Consider electronic payment system (automatic checking
withdrawal, not tied to Mass attendance)
•For members who contribute less than $200/yr, consider
add’l charges for baptisms and weddings
•Contact people by mail or phone each year to obtain a
pledge of weekly offering
•Offer shorter, upbeat services for youth--they are our
future
•Provide quarterly financial updates from pulpit, given
by FC member
•Identify why people are leaving
•Thanks to people who serve on parish committees
Why are families that do not contribute financially to
the Parish receiving Parisioner rates for their children at SPPS?
We now have a parishioner/non-parishioner form that requires
each family to declare their status at registration. The following guidelines were
established: registered, regular Mass
attendance, regular contributions and volunteer work. We’ve had parishioner and non-parishioner
rates in the past, but now the family signs the form when they declare their
status. We hope to educate and inspire
regarding the true cost of education.
You gave us a future look at population growth in
Waterloo and the church. What is the
historical information for the last 10 years for Waterloo compared to school
attendance? That is,
•Waterloo city 1994-2004
•SPP Parish 1994-2004
•SPP School 1994-2004
We will have to research those figures.
Why not move the budget back after school registration and teacher contracts or move school registration and teacher contracts forward? Enable better planning.
Good point-one of the problems is the diocese policy on
contracts. We’re looking at moving
registration up though.
Why don’t we require parents of students to give a
minimum amount in order to maintain the Catholic parishioner tuition level?
We’ve looked at that-but how do you determine what that
amount should be? There are many
families that struggle just to pay tuition.
It’s difficult to say you have to give more.
Instead of mailing the monthly reminders of the campaign
why not post a reminder in the Sunday Bulletin.
That would save some postage and paper.
We were told by the consultants that if you don’t send an
envelope, you aren’t likely to get paid.
We can look at that though.
Collection rate is high, however, so we may not want to “buck the
trend”.
If the school is having financial problems why are we
pushing PSR? More Catholic students
would help. We won’t be able to build a
new school if attendance doesn’t go up.
More students at SPPS would definitely help. We aren’t pushing PSR but also aren’t
promoting SPPS as we need. We’ve seen
the numbers for PSR go up. When we
surveyed those parents as to why they don’t send their kids to SPPS, 98% say it
is too costly.
Do people not realize what we really could have in this
parish if we acted the the Christians we are supposed to be instead of pulling
apart and always criticizing every move?
Join in and find out what’s going on.
Help out, stop criticizing. Work
together for the church.
We agree.
Father Lenzini’s cost is less that $4000 I believe. Is it really worth dropping him when the cost
is less than 2% of the $275,000?
We will review this issue.
1st Step - Ongoing Education
–Adults need ongoing education
–It is primarily the Parents responsibility to help their
children grow in faith.
–Adult education will help those understand the
background of our faith. Why we believe
certain things and how it applies to our lives.
–It comes down to the fact that Adults must nourish their
faith, otherwise it will not be passed down to their kids.
–If adults continue to feel the way they currently do,
and do not get a positive outcome, this Church WILL NOT succeed.
•2nd step- Children NEED ongoing
education.Children receive a lot of education from school. There is control by what the teachers are
required to teach these children.
Children are mostly affected by their family. What they learn from home has a major effect
on their growth in faith. Parents are a
main example of what these children believe.
Which means that a parent must have that bond with God to set an example
for their kids.
2.RCIA has been a success for growth in our
community. It must continue.
-I am
where I am today mainly because of Sister Mary, those in my group and other
parishioners.
-Her
warmth and sincerity is what continued my journey. I think I am fair to say that all the other
RCIA members feel the same.
-She has a calm personality that reaches out to all of us
and draws us to the church. She has
demonstrated an excellent example of the bond we want with God.
I understand that Sister Mary will no longer be
here. Who will continue RCIA?
–-It is very important that whoever continues this, has a
charismatic attitude.
–-So many of my friends, so many people in my generation
do not go to church.
–-Studies show that my generation “X Generation” has a different outlook on church. I believe it, because I felt the same way. I associated the Church with hypocrisy.
–-Generation X doesn’t like being told what to believe,
but is hungry for authenticity, truth and shared experience. Sister Mary made that possible for me.
–-My generation is uneducated. Going through RCIA changed my outlook on
religion
-I think
Sister Mary should stay.
•3. Todays
age in Contributions
–-One of the reasons for the drop in contributions in my
generation.
–-Older parishioners tend to respond that it doesn’t
matter what you get out of the sermon you just pay the amount
–-Today we pay for what we get. I know many people who have left this parish,
seeking spiritual growth, which they didn’t get here.
Ruth Heine responded from the floor:
Talking to others, looking for small more personal groups. If we all leave St. Peter and Paul and go to a small church, it’ll be big. We can make St. Peter and Paul more personal. RENEW is a way to overcome the feeling of coldness and non-response. In these small groups you can find the things that make your faith.